BS-Free Business Advice with Maggie Patterson

Andréa Jones (00:00):
That's bullshit! Have you ever been scrolling on social media and thought that to yourself? I know I have. And when I saw my friend Maggie Patterson just saying exactly what I was thinking on social media, I knew I had to bring her on the podcast on the show today. I'm super excited. Let's get into it.

Intro (00:30):
Welcome to The Savvy Social Podcast, the show that blends stories and strategies to help businesses create engaged and profitable online communities using the unique power of social media. And now, your host, Andréa Jones.

Andréa Jones (00:47):
Maggie, welcome to the show.

Maggie Patterson (00:49):
I'm super excited to be here and clearly I'm allowed to say the word bullshit on this podcast, so that's great.

Andréa Jones (00:54):
Yes, yes. We're going all in this year on just being real and authentic. And that means sometimes we say bullshit. And I remember seeing one of your posts I can't even remember when you started really posting about some of the thoughts that we're all thinking apparently on social media, but I remember seeing it and going, oh, I'm not the only one who feels like that was scamming. Right. So, and I know this isn't new to you, so I wanna start with that, that concept, because you are a very bold person, you say it as it is. Have you always been this way?

Maggie Patterson (01:31):
Yeah, I was literally born this way. Like this is not, this is the Maggie default setting. And just to put it in context, I share this on social media periodically. When I was my last year of high school, which in the province of Ontario, there was a grade 13 dating myself that no longer exists. But I did this creative writing project and it was called like 18 years, you know, 46 days and three hours of bullshit. And that's, so it's like literally been my personal brand since I was very, very young. Like, I've just, somebody's like, I've got time for this. Like, can we just tell the truth? And so it just comes naturally to me.

Andréa Jones (02:08):
<Laugh>, I love it because it does not come naturally to me. I am like the most least non-confrontational person ever. So I'm like, thank you Maggie, for saying what I don't have the COEs to say. But I know that this started off as introducing a, a conversation on your previous brand, the small business boss, and now you've kind of really leaned into it, rebranded. So talk to me about that transition. What was that like for you?

Maggie Patterson (02:35):
So I think what's really interesting, we've shifted from small business boss to BS free business. And while that seems very new to everyone, that's really been the brand in my head for pretty much ever. I had launched a course in like 2015, which was like, no BS marketing, but oh, that was a trademark infringement. So we walked that back and then I had some coaches along the way and they, they kind of like stripped the meat, like as tends to happen sometimes when you work with other people, some of you might go missing. So I, I really spent a lot of time infusing that back into my brand, my business, my voice. And I think what's really interesting is, well we made this shift here in 2023. That was a shift we made in early 2020 with our one podcast, the BS free service business show. Like we had rebranded at that time. But I also really wanted to make sure that I could have the trademark on BS free business before I used it because it's something that has such a, it's such a, like a, it's catchy. I had the.com but it took that long to work through the trademark process, the branding process. So I've been behind the scenes waiting for this for so long and we did manage to get all the legal stuff handled

Andréa Jones (03:49):
<Laugh>. Oh, I love that. Starting with the legal, I really feel like I should do that more and more of us should so that we don't get in trouble. So you've, you've rebranded, but the core of your brand has been talking about these topics for a really long time and I noticed it especially in the past couple of years. So was there like a a a specific inspiration moment where you're like, oh, that's scammy, I'm posting this on social media, or tell me about that process.

Maggie Patterson (04:19):
So I think what's really interesting, I know you and I have talked about this before is I really kind of struggled with Instagram up until early 2020. Like I was just like, ugh, I am a, you know, and as context, I'm a writer, I'm a content marketer, I'm a pot longtime podcaster. I'm not someone who does short form content in general. So I was really struggling with that. And earlier that, early in that year, kind of actually three years from our current timeline, with the advent of the pandemic, I started to see things that were just, I was like hold up. Like some of the worst advice I've ever seen in all my years in online business and business in general. Then you combine that with, I was going through these internal shifts and I was just like, Maggie, you need to use Instagram cuz you need a social media platform.

(05:07):
So I just started kind of dipping my, my toe in and then we had the racial reckoning of 2020 on top of that. And what I saw, like, so we had this layers of the pandemic, we had this layers of people like being exposed if you will, for not living their values in business. And so many people were surprised and I was like, wow, I've known this so long. And not in like a, I know it all way, but like if you were paying attention to how people were marketing, if you were paying attention to how they were running their programs, none of this should have been a surprise. But I think everyone has always been so like, oh, exactly what you said off the top. Is it just me? And I was like, I've been saying this stuff in my podcast quietly for my listeners for years.

(05:50):
I'm like, we might as well bring this show to Instagram and just start saying it. And you know, I was very tentative at the beginning. I had to experiment with what's the right level, what's the right cuz I mean, I could just go all out, but I was also like, I didn't wanna be destructive. I wanted to be constructive in everything I was doing. So there had to be a lot of thought and experimentation in those early phases. And like after a while I just kind of really hit my stride. I was like, oh, this really works for me. And it's very much aligned with my bigger message, how I run my business and how I wanna show up in the world.

Andréa Jones (06:22):
One of the things that I like that you do in your approach as well is you, you call out the actions and not the individuals or the business. And you do use characters, which I wanna talk about the characters as well. But you, you address the core issue. So for example, one of the ones that sticks out to me is the idea of payment plans and how, how much people add on to like people who have to sign up for recurring payments. And you know, you don't call out anyone specifically, but you do address the problem. And I think that's a very, to me, it feels like a very intentional decision. Am I correct in that?

Maggie Patterson (07:06):
It is a very intentional decision and there's multiple layers to that decision. But at a high level it comes down to this is trying to go after people is not a productive exercise because the, a lot of these people have made their decisions in their business. I don't have enough influence to change that. But what I can change is helping consumers be better educated and influencing their decision making process and how they are thinking about these things. And a lot of the feedback I get is like, I've always known there was something wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This always felt off to me. And if I can be kind of that sassy big sister in the background that goes, oh, hold up, you maybe should think about this before you go to the party <laugh>. That's really my role because it is really easy to attack people, but I don't really feel like that's moving the bar.

(08:02):
And ultimately like there's a legal ramification of that. There's this personal safety out of that. I mean, I have watched people call people out and it goes very bad, very, very quickly in terms of they send their followers for them. Like, I don't have that in me. And then the other thing, and I'd share this with my email list not that long ago, is I'm someone that works with clients hands on. I'm one of the only people they can talk to about their bad experiences. Who really gets it. I'd honestly, at this point I can't even discern what's mine and what's my clients everything. So unless it's a absolute personal experience, I have 100% had, I'm not gonna be comfortable speaking for someone else.

Andréa Jones (08:39):
Yeah, yeah. Basically you're doing the de-influencing trend, just like you were doing it before it was a trend. Yes.

Maggie Patterson (08:45):
<Laugh>. Yeah. My podcast co-host for duped and I, I were talking about this this week. I said, have you heard about de influencing? Like we've been de-influencing before it was cool.

Andréa Jones (08:54):
Yeah. And I love this because my husband tells me I'm level seven susceptible, which is like a phrase for him community where I would, I'm like the person who's like, oh, I'm gonna, I am, I'm influenced, I'm easily influenced. I know that about myself. I have to fight that all the time. But I'm currently wearing glasses that are from an Instagram ad. So it is what It's <laugh>. Yeah. It's what, it's so, I love content like this because it illuminates things in a way that some people are, are afraid to speak up about. And you do it in such a creative way. One of the, the most creative ways that I've seen this done that you've done is your character. So I wanna talk about this because you've created personas for the online coaching industry. Specific specifically, where did the inspiration for this content come from? And then I wanna dig into like how you filmed the reels, all of it.

Maggie Patterson (09:51):
Okay. This was, this really came from a place of frustration because one of the big conversations that I was having when I first came up with what I call the celebrity entrepreneur archetypes in 2020 was people kept saying to me, but they seem nice or they seem this or they seem that. And I think because at the time there was a conversation about, bro, you know, bro marketing, people expect it's a bro line lying on a Lamborghini. And I was like, no, no, no. Like you need to know. This comes in a lot of different flavors and you know, there's just like anything, you know, we have all those personality types. There is also types of celebrity entrepreneurs and they all approach their marketing and sales a little bit different. And you need to understand what they're doing because there's certain things they're using to weaponize against you in that process. Whether, whether, and I will say whether that is a specific choice they are making or not, it is something that they are doing in their business. So I think being able to spot the different flavors of this becomes really, really powerful. And I love it when people, someone says, oh, I saw this. Like, they'll like point out the archetype in the wild. I'm like, yep, my work here is done

Andréa Jones (11:03):
<Laugh>. Yep, I see it all. I can't unsee it now. I can't unsee it. And you also often make the parallels to cults and as someone who has a very niche religious background, let's say I, I know I can see it. I can see it. So, so you created the archetypes and then you use them to create reel's content, you have the outfits and everything. I do. Okay. Talk to me about the process of creating this. I'm so geeked about this.

Maggie Patterson (11:37):
<Laugh>. Okay, so I first kind of did like a light version when I was first playing with reels. Cause I was like, Hmm, what am I gonna do with this? And I basically tried on what at the time I was calling the bro persona. I think since then I've evolved that. But you know, and then I also tried on more of a kind of very typical spiritual coach type wait hat crystals. I tried some of those on and I was like, oh, these actually got good reaction. And to be honest with reels at the beginning is I was like, what? I don't know what I'm gonna do with this. Like, I am not a video person. I'm a podcaster. More importantly, I am a writer. I'm like, can you let me write 5,000 words on that? Great. I'm gonna make that really compelling. So like seven second video is not my favorite thing. <Laugh>.

(12:22):
So I kind of tested it out and then I was like, oh, that went well. And I was like, okay. And I will say that reel took forever to film, but it is something that I, I mean that was three years ago. I still use it all the time as an example. And like, I just was basically like, okay, what would these people wear? So the one archetype, the bff BFF next door, which you think they're so nice, but they're like using their story to kind of weaponize it against you. And you're like, oh, but they seem like my friend. I'm like, no, no, they're not your friend. They want your bank account. You know, for them I was like, what do they wear? I'm like a pink shirt and a top knot. Like just really kind of dropping into what those people are gonna, the luxury lifestyle person is probably gonna wear one of those influencer hats. They've ruined hats for us. I'm just gonna say <laugh>,

Andréa Jones (13:10):
All

Maggie Patterson (13:11):
The hats. I'm just understanding how those people show up because a lot of them are really sneaky. And like once you like exactly what you said, once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Andréa Jones (13:19):
No you can't. You can't. And it, it's one of those things too where I love that you used the visual representation in the reel and then you reference back to that because a lot of times people think, oh, I created this piece of content one time and then it's just gonna live there. But you could actually pull it back up again and again, which is super helpful for those of you who wanna try this concept. But no, it does take a lot of time. I noticed recently though, you've kind of switched your real strategy a little or your posting strategy just a little bit. I wanna talk about that and then I wanna get into some of the negativity after the break.

(13:57):
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(14:08):
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(14:54):
And we're back. So let's dive into your content strategy today because you use a mixture of reels and kind of written content. Some of it seems to come directly from your podcast, which you also write whole blog posts, which I appreciate as a new mom, I appreciate the the blog post version as well. So talk to me about your process in creating the content and then how that reflects on social media.

Maggie Patterson (15:19):
So I think this is a really interesting evolution for me because all of last year I was very much struggling with what's the, and I'm sure you've seen this all the time, Andrea, like what is the right mix of reels versus, you know, feed posts? Like what is the right thing? And I was just like, but I like doing feed posts. But I had decided over the summer to kind of slow down on the feed post cause they weren't doing it as well and do more reels. And I was like, okay, don't worry about the feed posts, just focus on the reels for now. And I tried doing direct your camera, I tried doing trending audio, I tried a bunch of different things and I was like, okay, what performs best for me? And more importantly, as someone who doesn't love doing video, what's easy for me?

(16:01):
And I was like, okay, trending audio is it. So I really just was like, I do love direct to camera, I will do it at some point, but like the energetic cost of that is just so immense and I don't get better results from it. Hmm. So I was like, why would I continue to do this? So I'm just like, I save my trending audios once or twice a month. I like take an hour. I film a bunch of them. I don't even know when I film them what they're going to be. I just have, so like I'm like oh right, what are we doing for reels this week? I go into what was filmed, what's in my camera roll? And I'm like, okay, that's a trending audio goes great with this idea. And that has really streamlined the whole workflow. But I think what was interesting is Instagram then came and adjusted the algorithm again and I was like, okay, great.

(16:48):
Cuz I was just, I was really tired at the end of last year and had a very kind of tumultuous year personally a lot of transitions. And I was like, okay, we're just gonna do feed posts for a bit. And they were doing really well. And I was like okay, so now for 2023 we are back to a mix of those things. And I've been really myy match as a marketer watching the numbers. And while my reels reach new people, my feed posts are what brings in the bulk of the comments, the bulk, the likes, the bulk of the shares. And I know for me Instagram is a platform to amplify my podcasts and my blog posts. So if my work is getting shared and is in front of new people that's bringing in new followers that then start listening to the podcast. Because I also know with my masterminds, with my shop products, with all the things I am selling, what converts the past to people who listen to that podcast for months on end. They're like, they just show up on a con on a call and they're like, yep, give here, how do I sign up right now? There's no sales call, there's conversation they already know like, and trust me cuz they've been listening to me for months if not years.

Andréa Jones (17:53):
Yes. Okay. A few things I wanna emphasize. For those of you listening, Maggie figured out what works for her, the easy route. I am actually the opposite. So that's so funny because for me, if I can just point to the cam, point the camera at my face and talk, ask me a question, I'll answer it. That's the easiest for me. Trending audios something about especially lip syncing ones I cannot get it <laugh>, I dunno what it is, it takes me four freaking ever. And so I rarely do them because just, that's just me. That's just how it works. And I think that's so important of a conversation to have because there isn't just one right way or one path forward. It's finding the, the space between what's working statistically data backed science and then what works for you. Like the art side of it. The part that's unpredictable.

(18:44):
I love that so much. And if you're listening and, and you wanna try to figure out what works for you, here's two examples, two different ways. And then I love that you experimented with the frequency, you found what works for you and you know exactly how it impacts your business. I think this is also the piece that a lot of people miss with social media is that you use reels for discovery, but your main focus, your main conversation driver are those feed posts. And even then the the point is to get people to listen to your podcast, which is how people then feel comfortable paying you. And I'll also say this, for those of you listening I just subscribe to the Duped podcast, which is their Michelle and Maggie have like an amazing podcast going deep into all of these conversations and they just created a Patreon. So for me as a listener I'm like yeah, I wanna give you my money. First of all it's like a no I think it's like $7, it's

Maggie Patterson (19:43):
$7 for rest a month. So yeah, I was like, and the guarantee, I don't know if you saw this Andrea, the guarantee is we're gonna save you $25,000 cuz you're not gonna join a mastermind. Yeah.

Andréa Jones (19:53):
Which I loved. I loved that. I was like, here take my money. And that's because I like binge listened through the podcast and felt really confident, comfortable and actually was eager to be like, oh they, they want to be to buy something. Yes I will buy something because I want to support this initiative. And so I love this example because there is a purpose behind the content that you're creating and it's very, very intentional with that path. Do you have any comments to add to that before I add to go to the next question?

Maggie Patterson (20:29):
So I think one of the things I really wanna call out about the feed post and I've had this conversation a lot with my clients that I mentor is, you know, they're like, it doesn't work for me. I think the feed posts really work for me because there's a lot of nuance in my work and it can't be necessary conveyed in a seven second audio, but I generally can get at least the thesis of my argument across in that feed post. And I also think like they're very shareable. Like they're not click bait, but it's definitely like it stops the scroll. And that has been a skill I've had to refine over time. Like I didn't just show up and like first carol sub post, like I've written hundreds if not thousands of these and now I really know who know it works. And I will say this even though I know it works, sometimes there's something that's you're like really, really <laugh>. This is the post that has the most likes ever. Okay. Makes no sense. I also too, I have very much been going back to what I know works and I've been just tweaking it for 2023 and reposting it cause my podcast has been on hiatus. I'm like, I don't wanna spend a lot of time on content creation. So like what can I use that has not, you know, my follower account has grown, these people haven't seen it. So don't forget about those gems in the background. Like repurpose as much as you can.

Andréa Jones (21:47):
Yes. I love the repurposing tip as well. I think you repurposed something recently that had me going on your website and looking at your values. So I do wanna talk about that for a second because you have a very strong stance on what you value as a business as an individual. And one of those is your commitment to accessibility. You, you very often if not always put the ID tags in the, in the comment section. So can you share some of the ways that you commit to your content being accessible and and why that's a value to you?

Maggie Patterson (22:23):
So I think that's a value to me cuz it's actually one of our brand values. It's just things are gonna be accessible and whether that be accessible for my financial point of view or for someone with a disability or with a different learning style, I have adhd. So like someone's saying you need to sit down and watch a video. I'm like <laugh>. Like if there's like, and I, there's been so many courses over the years I haven't been able to finish. Not because I didn't have the interest because there was no transcripts. Like I've been through entire 12 course things, never watched a video because my brain doesn't work that way. Like it is if you put gimme a podcast fine cause I can do other stuff but sitting I don't have the attention stand for it. So I think for me it's come from my own personal experiences in that right in that way of just being like, this is so frustrating and I mean I could do it but I mean if you have you know, your hear heart of hearing you have a visual impairment, like it is really difficult to consume a lot of the content that's out there.

(23:21):
So for me, things like ensuring the podcasts have transcripts if there's not a full written blog post and I can't even tell you how many people thank me for that. It is from my perspective for a podcast, it is the minimum. Like it is, you are literally constraining people from consuming your content. And I actually asked this question on Instagram about a year ago. 50% of people said they don't listen to my podcast, read the, read the transcript or they read the blog post. So that was, so imagine your audience 50% smaller cuz you can't be bothered, especially with all the AI tools, like just run it through ai, take five minutes and clean it up. It's super, super easy. And then like the image descriptions and captioning that just to me is just, you know, kind of basic etiquette. And honestly, again, with the captioning, there's a couple creators I love, I've had to unfollow them cuz they don't caption my hearing. There's no problems. But I never have audio on in my phone ever. Like it's very rare I actually listen to anything <laugh> unless it's like a podcast social media. I'm scrolling no sound on

Andréa Jones (24:24):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yep, same. And especially those are just, you know, oh, go ahead.

Maggie Patterson (24:29):
I was just gonna say, those are super easy basic things and like, do I love writing image descriptions for a carousel post? Not particularly. But again, it's important that if I'm going to say I'm running a business with these values, that I'm actually executing those values in all aspects of my business.

Andréa Jones (24:46):
100%. And I think this is a great example of actually living the values because a lot of people like to claim the, especially the word like ethical marketing or value BA based business. And it's like, yeah, okay, so you put the label on your business, great, congratulations. And how does that actually show up? What does that even mean? And so I love that, you know, you don't have to put that, that label on your business. It's just you're just doing it. You're just doing it and you're living it, which I 100% appreciate. And honestly, I send your posts to people all of the time <laugh> for that reason too. I'm like, here's a way how you could do this as well. You know, like something that someone else is doing, they're doing it, it's possible. So I I really appreciate that. And I'll also say this, for those of you listening, take one step at a time.

(25:45):
Yeah. And improve as you go. We, this year was the first year we added transcripts to our podcast and it, it was one of those things where I was like, why have we not, why have, why haven't we been doing this? It's not even me doing it, my team does it. So there's literally no excuse. And it's something where I was like, there's no excuse. We're just gonna do it now. And so, you know, take the steps that you need to one step at a time. I love that. Okay, last question before we wrap up is I just wanna get like a behind the scenes peek on any blowback from some of these conversations because ask someone who looked through your personas and said, oh, I'm the BFF next door. You know, I see myself in that one. I know for a fact there's some people who see themselves and then their defenses arise up and they get their keyboards going and they gotta say something. So has there any been any toxicity behind the response that you're getting? And how do you navigate that?

Maggie Patterson (26:47):
I think this is a fascinating question on multiple levels. So everyone buckle up. The interesting thing is, as much as you wouldn't think that naturally people see those archetypes and then their, you know, Layla, their back goes up, the majority of people say, oh, it's not me. And I think that's kind of the secret genius of my work in a lot of ways is because it's like I am educating you, but everyone has a lot of people. I feel like people react in two ways I feel attacked. And then they will go and fix something or they go, oh, I don't do that and move a lot. And the I don't do that. People are really interesting. Now, that's not to say I don't have my detractors, but I do think because I don't name names, I, I keep it classy if you will. I go high, try to keep it, you know, above board and not devolve into a character assassination.

(27:40):
But every so often I'll get a podcast review or I'll get a Instagram comment that's trying to kind of gotcha me and I'm so secure in the work I'm doing, the message I have. Like, we just had a podcast review for duped that said we weren't experts and Michelle and I cannot stop laughing about it cause we're just like, is that all you've got? Like, if someone wants, and I think this is the thing, I'm very open to real feedback and critique. I absolutely receive that. And whether I choose to act on it is another thing. But when someone is going to come in with some sort of critique that's not valid. Like I'm not an expert. Hmm. I've been doing marketing for over 20 years, I think I'm okay on this front. It's kind of an interesting, and I think one of the things I see a lot of is there is a real fear of critique being critiqued.

(28:35):
There's a real fear of, and we talked about this on our podcast episode this week, people fear being canceled, people aren't being canceled. It's, it's a bit of a moral panic to be honest. Like it's not really happening the way people think it's happening. And if you're actually open to feedback, like there's been comments who have completely changed my worldview. I absolutely did not like the comment in the moment, but I thought more about it and I was able to internalize that and come back and have a conversation. And I think that's part of the thing with social media is I'm willing to have a conversation if you are gonna come and kind of like post and go and you're not going to foster the communication with your audience, you're not gonna create community or you are gonna just gonna delete all the comments. Like maybe social media isn't the place for you. Hmm.

Andréa Jones (29:23):
Yes. Oh, I'm so curious. Now do, can you give an example of a comment that kind of changed your mind about something?

Maggie Patterson (29:31):
I had someone there's been a couple conversations in the comments I thought have been really interesting because I am very much someone who feels very strongly that income claim marketing is absolutely like it's a no for me. And I generally do not do business with people who engage in it now to each their own. But I've had some really thoughtful exchanges with people that talked about how income claim marketing was really helpful for them because it demonstrated the possibility for them. It showed them based on their, you know, different identities, what the options were. And it really did help me kind of refine my thesis a little bit. And I think that's the thing is I'm always using the comments as a place for a feedback loop to help me refine the message or you know, sometimes it just gets someone who's like, I don't get this.

(30:22):
And I'm like, okay, so did they not get it or did I not communicate it as clearly as I could? Mm. You know, I think being o open to those things, not just immediately being like everyone's a hater delete <laugh>. Yeah. Because that's a really easy thing to do, but I don't know why are we so, I don't love getting feedback. I want someone who wants, I'm, I'm an Anya gram eight with a nine wing. I don't really wanna have a confrontation as much as I am bold. Like I'm just like, can I just do my work and quietly go read my books? Thanks <laugh>. Yes, let me back out here. But if I'm gonna post, I need to be willing to have those conversations says really the what I've arrived at.

Andréa Jones (31:02):
I agree. I think it's so interesting how some people want to post and then create this echo chamber where only the people who agree with them are allowed, allowed to even be in the same space. And it's, it's odd that we've gone that way a little bit with social media or some people have. So I like your willingness to show up and have those hard conversations. And I think that's exactly why people delete block people who are challenging them or questioning things because they just don't wanna have the hard conversation. To me it's literally like being ghosted by someone where you're like, you went on a date with them and then they just stopped talking to you. It's, it, it's very much that energy <laugh>

Maggie Patterson (31:47):
And, and honestly like, and I had posted about this recently is we need to be really careful I think as consumers engaging with people that have a like no comments policy that delete with, you know, impunity. Because there's a big difference between someone has left a hateful comment that is completely out of line attacking, you know, something about your appearance or identity, et cetera, not okay and someone asking, especially a paying client a valid question that, you know, just gets deleted because they can't withstand that thing that is, that is truly information control. And this is about a very troubling pattern that I see with people of trying to control everything about their personal brand, trying to control everything about what people can say about them. And the reality is, is people are always gonna have opinions about you. So maybe you shouldn't be a personal brand or a public figure or running a business in this way if you can't take the heat. And generally, just so we're all clear, the people I see getting heat a lot on social media are doing things that are a little scammy and shady in my opinion. So I don't get those comments cuz I don't do those things. It's pretty simple. <Laugh>.

Andréa Jones (33:04):
Fair enough. You know, I think that I I love that, I love that because it's like if if you have your values, you stand by your values, you have a community that also has those same values, then you're probably not gonna get a lot of those comments or you're gonna get the, the one podcast reviewer who is like, you're not an expert. It's like, okay. Okay, <laugh>. I love this. And you know, a lot of this conversation we've referenced Duped, which is by the way, an amazing podcast. If y'all haven't listened to it and you wanna go deep dive into the world of like online scamming this, you gotta listen to it. Can you tell us a little bit about the podcast for, for those who are curious?

Maggie Patterson (33:45):
Yeah, so basically it's a consumer advocacy show. I co-host it with my friend Dr. Michelle Mazur. And we really come in it from a marketing communications lens and looking at the practices like why do we fall? Like the real question is why do we fall for this? Like, not why we're not here to try to fix those business practices and like, you know, totally redo people's businesses. We're really coming up from the point of like, why are we vulnerable to getting scammed? Like you said, you're a level seven vulnerable. Like yeah, we're newsflash, we're all vulnerable. Studies show that the more you think you're not vulnerable, the more vulnerable you are. Mm. Like it's, we are all, we are all a mark for these things. So we need to understand like why is this appealing to us? What are the tactics they're using? And more importantly, how do we protect ourselves as a consumer?

(34:34):
So we're not making, you know, we're not buying an offer where we don't have the details. We're not giving someone $25,000 for zero information. Like there's a lot of horrible impacts to these decisions that get made. And so I love it when we get a DM when someone says, I didn't buy this because I've been listening to duped. I'm like, my mission notes has been accomplished. So we really put a firm lens in it and we talk about, as you know, Andrea, all of it we're like, let's talk about high ticket pricing. Like why is, why are things getting more and more expensive? Let's talk about, we're gonna talk about manifestation this season. We're talking about million dollar businesses and the dream of that and we're bringing a lot of data and research. So it's not just like Maggie Michelle do a takedown piece. We're thinking about it from a like what's the psychology behind this? What's the data tells? This is why it works and here's how you're not gonna get sucked in.

Andréa Jones (35:28):
Yes, I am here for it. It ver it reminds me a little bit of maintenance phase, which

Maggie Patterson (35:35):
What one of my favorite shows like that is the highest praise because we are essentially a fan podcast for them. <Laugh>.

Andréa Jones (35:43):
Okay. Yeah. It's very much maintenance phase, which I our, our mutual friend Meg Casebolt said, you gotta listen to this episode. And I listened to one and was like hooked immediately. Cuz I, I love the research that goes into every episode and you guys have that. You, you have that nailed down. There's research, there's data, there's stories. You don't name names obviously, but you do share. Like this is a thing that actually happened to someone. And a lot of times I do feel like, and we talked about this at the top of the show, we feel embarrassed if we've been duped. And one of the things that I love about the show is you uncover the things that sometimes we're too embarrassed to share. Like spending personal example, $10,000 on a program that literally taught me nothing. And so it's, it feels good to have you in my ear hole. So thank you

Maggie Patterson (36:43):
<Laugh> <laugh>. And I'm just gonna give a plug, if anyone is not listening to Maintenance Stays Absolutely run out after you subscribe to Duped, please go listen to Maintenance Stays because that podcast has literally changed my life in so many ways. Yeah. And I mean it's a lot to say that about a podcast. I'm not someone who's prone to hyperbole, but like that, that podcast has been life changing. I could literally give you a what episodes that are

Andréa Jones (37:08):
<Laugh>. Yeah, I love it. Okay, we'll have to, we'll have to like geek out about maintenance space because I love that. Yeah. All of the links, y'all are in the show notes onlinedrea.com/ 2 4 4. I will link out to the duped podcast everything BS free business that Maggie is doing. Also both Maggie and Michelle were previously on this podcast so I'll link to both of their episodes as well if you wanna go back into the archives for that one. But Maggie, thank you so much for delivering on this episode. This was great.

Maggie Patterson (37:41):
Thank you so much for having me

Andréa Jones (37:43):
And stay tuned. We're coming back with more episodes soon. In the meantime, subscribe to us Apple Podcast, Spotify, leave us a five star review if you love the show really helps us stay in the top 100 marketing podcast. We appreciate you. We'll be back soon. Bye for now.