Building Stronger Connections Through Email With Allea Grummert [Happy Subscribers Podcast]

Andréa Jones [00:00:00]:
Hi, friend. Welcome back to the Mindful Marketing podcast. And every December, I bring you a couple guest interviews in this hair feed because it's just a fun way to like wrap up the year. Makes it really easy for you to listen to me on other shows so you don't have to like hunt them down or anything. And also gives me a little break. So today's episode originally aired on Happy Subscribers with Allea Grummert. We talked about email marketing in a way that feels grounded and realistic, especially if you are busy or tired or just like not interested in making your business revolve around making content all day.

Andréa Jones [00:00:41]:
Hello.

Andréa Jones [00:00:42]:
So we cover a three part structure that I use in my own newsletter. How I keep it short, but still storytelling and meaningful. How I show up there and how it kind of works with everything that I do. So without further ado, let's get into this interview with Allea.

Allea Grummert [00:01:01]:
I was introduced to Drea through the one Ms. Colie James. And I really know very little about social media marketing, but I do know that it's an important top of funnel source for many creators. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation with you, Drea, to see how we can better use social to grow our email list and engage with our audiences. So welcome to the show. Yay.

Andréa Jones [00:01:22]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. And Colie's amazing for connecting us.

Allea Grummert [00:01:26]:
Oh my gosh. And she gave me like five names of people. I need to talk to you. And I was like, you are the best and I love that. I sent you an email and I was like, what if we just like meet each other the day of and jump in and you're like, let's go. I appreciate, appreciate that energy, of course.

Andréa Jones [00:01:40]:
Always.

Allea Grummert [00:01:41]:
Well, I am curious. Is there anything that I didn't share that is important for people to know about you?

Andréa Jones [00:01:46]:
Oh, gosh. Well, I started in this online space in 2004 in blogging. And in 2004. In 2004, blogging was definitely not cool. Like, it was like the nerdy, dorky thing to do. I started my YouTube channel in 2007. Again, not cool. Filming videos in your room for who is what my friends would ask.

Andréa Jones [00:02:09]:
But through that creative process, I actually collaborated on a video with my now husband. So we met through the power of YouTube and that's how I moved. I used to live in Atlanta, Georgia. Now I'm here in Canada.

Allea Grummert [00:02:20]:
Oh my goodness. That is the best turn of events. I did not expect for it to go that way. Oh my Gosh, I love it.

Andréa Jones [00:02:26]:
So social media is, like, literally my life and everything.

Allea Grummert [00:02:29]:
Oh, my gosh, I love that. Oh, thank you for sharing it. I am curious, especially talking about the burnout situation. We're just going to dive right in. But because you talk about doing marketing with burnout, and that's something that we need to hear more about. Can you tell me, like, what is your soapbox behind that? Like, why is this message important for people to hear?

Andréa Jones [00:02:49]:
Yeah, I think it's so important because every single social platform to date has rewarded you for how much you post. Right. And how much content you create. And so it's really easy for us as content creators to, like, fall into the trap of, I've got to post more, I have to do bigger. I have to, you know, be on and available every single day. And we've seen, like, some of our top favorite creators literally come on, you know, YouTube crying or posting on Instagram saying, I'm burnt out. I can't do this anymore. And so my.

Andréa Jones [00:03:20]:
My soapbox, my mission is like, let's find a way that you can create content very consistently from a place that's, like, exciting and fun and energetic without sacrificing yourself to, like, the Instagram algorithm. So that's my soapbox. It's like, there is a way to do this without making yourself sick in the process.

Allea Grummert [00:03:39]:
Yeah. I'm curious, just from a high level, is that a matter of choosing the right platform or is that having the right content or the right distance from the algorithm or, like, from the data? Like, how do you even do that?

Andréa Jones [00:03:52]:
Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it starts with our preferences as human beings, and I think we dismiss that a lot because of the, like, shoulds and coulds of social media. Like, take TikTok, for instance. When TikTok rose to fame, it feels like everyone's like, oh, you have to be on TikTok. But honestly, if recording videos like that makes you feel super anxious, or if you don't even enjoy being on the platform, it doesn't matter if it could have viral potential. You're never going to do it because you don't like being there. Right. And so I think a lot of it comes down to our preferences, like, how do you like creating content first and what platforms do you like spending time on? And if we can actually, like, follow our gut and our instinct towards what we like, then we can carve out a strategy that works for us.

Andréa Jones [00:04:36]:
Because the way that the Internet works right now, there's pockets of people everywhere like, it really doesn't matter if you're, like, a Reddit person or if you're, like, a Facebook group person. Like, you'll find your pockets of people on pretty much any platform. So if you follow that thread of your preferences, I think that's one of the first steps you can take into avoiding burnout.

Allea Grummert [00:04:58]:
Yeah. So when you're saying, like, mindful marketing, one element of that is like, why don't we just, like, take a step and actually, like, assess versus just feeling this need, like, I have to do it because the world tells me to. Or it feels like your business is so reliant on this new media in order to survive.

Andréa Jones [00:05:15]:
Yeah. And, you know, this comes from, like, a deeply personal place for me. I. I love Gary Vee. You know, Gary V. Gary Vader, chef. Followed him from the beginning, loved all his stuff, was following all of his strategies to a T. And then I started my business in 2014, and by 2018, I was burnt out, like, literally having these.

Andréa Jones [00:05:35]:
I'm gonna call them panic attacks, anxiety moments, just, like, undiagnosed. I was like, okay, I have to fix this.

Allea Grummert [00:05:42]:
Right?

Andréa Jones [00:05:42]:
Like, I can't wake up with a sense of dread for, like, my phone making a noise. Right. That's not healthy. And so I realized I needed to, like, create space and boundaries and figure out what this is for me. And so I deleted everything off my phone for two weeks and then slowly started adding things back in. I turned off all the notifications for everything and was trying to find my way and figure it out, and that's where it came from for me. And so by 2020, you know what happened in 2020? Big pandemic moment. I realized a lot of people were feeling that, like, digital overload and overwhelm.

Andréa Jones [00:06:19]:
So I created a meditation. It's free. You just search social media, unwind. It'll come up on any podcasting app, on YouTube, whatever. And the first lesson in this meditation series is understanding your relationship with social media. Because a lot of us have this, like, toxic situationship where we love it because we love creating content, but then we hate it because we feel so obligated. And, oh, my goodness, Instagram sending us, like, a fake notification about things that don't matter. Now we're on Instagram scrolling, and we're like, why are we here? So I created that meditation to help us understand, like, how do we actually want to spend time here? What do we actually want to do here? And that's why I think the mindset piece is so important when it comes to marketing.

Allea Grummert [00:07:02]:
Yeah, because there's. Even when I talk about it with my coaching clients, we can come up with all of these ideas, but if, unless we really choose them wisely, like what direction to go, it's like you don't see how much work actually goes into making each of those happen. So it's like we can make a wise choice from the get go because there's still so much work behind each one. And unless you're planning to do four fold the work, you should probably just pick one or two strategies instead of all four.

Andréa Jones [00:07:26]:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think too, it's hard because we see everyone's highlight reel and we get like the fomo, right? We're like, oh, you know, so and so who we've put in our mind as a competitor. You know, they're posting every day, look at their blog, look at their YouTube, look at their whatever. And so we feel lots of feelings about it because we're humans, right. And then we start comparing and we start like beating ourselves up over things where we don't know what's happening behind the scenes. And for a long time I ran an agency where we would help manage people's social media. So I know that your favorite content creator has like a team of people making that magic happen. So you're comparing yourself to a team.

Andréa Jones [00:08:06]:
So cut yourself some slack.

Allea Grummert [00:08:08]:
Yeah. Is there a good way to like keep your eyes on your own paper? Like, is it like just kind of tracking your own stats, setting your own consistency and like, that's the, the bar that you hold yourself to.

Andréa Jones [00:08:19]:
Yeah. So one of the things I do, and I do think this is personalized to you. Like some people can follow competitors and be like, yeah, no, you know, community over competition. I'm not that way personally, so I don't follow competitors. I put them in a list in my Google Keep, like my notes app. And so I will check in when I'm doing competitor research. That's my boundary. I realize if I see those posts, pop them in my feed, it is not fun for me.

Andréa Jones [00:08:46]:
And then I start going down the rabbit hole of like, o, look at all the cute things they're doing. I should do that too. Like, one of my competitors, not going to name names, does these like acting out videos. And I've tried it once or twice. It's not for me. It takes me way too long. If I have to go by script, oh my gosh, it's, it's not going to work. And you could tell in the video that took me way too Long, it didn't get a lot of views.

Andréa Jones [00:09:10]:
So I was getting really frustrated that I spent so much time with something that's not working for me. And so I can't see that in my feed because then I just start comparing myself. So for me, I put it in a different spot. For some people, they're like, I mute them, but I follow them. For some people, they're like, I have my work account and then I have my personal account. Like, you have to kind of figure out what works for you. But I do think it's like, it has to be intentional, otherwise you'll be scrolling through social media, feeling all the feelings and not really understanding what's happening.

Allea Grummert [00:09:37]:
Exactly. Oh, yeah, well, and then we're gonna get into talking about email marketing, too. And so even with that, it's just like, it's setting your own consistency and, and tracking your own stats and improving your own relationship with your subscribers. But, like, you also, there's no way we even know how your competitors like what their click rates are unless they go and put it on the Internet. And so I guess that's kind of like, maybe why I gravitate more towards email than social, because I'm like, I just. I have to keep my eyes on my own paper. There's really nothing else for me to, like, try and compare to. I guess I could follow a bunch of email lists and.

Allea Grummert [00:10:10]:
And I do sometimes, but there's also just, like, there's so much. I don't know, there's so much intentionality with how you can do your email that, like, even if somebody else is doing something fun and, like, shiny, you're like, well, I've already got my strategy, and it makes it a lot easier to stay in your lane, if you will.

Andréa Jones [00:10:27]:
Yeah. That's why I like email too, because it feels so much more intimate than social media. Like, someone has to sign up for that in order to get anything from you. And the way the social media algorithms are right now, like, you're getting content from people. You're like, I. I didn't ask for this. Like, it's just now in feed, and I lingered too long, and now I'm seeing all of these products I didn't even want to see. And so this is what I like about email, too, is like, you can sign up for stuff, and then even if you're a freak like me, your Google filters, you can filter out certain things.

Andréa Jones [00:10:57]:
So, yes, I do that with my competitors too. I will sign up for their email list, and then you can set the Filter so that they go into another folder, and I can look at that folder when I need to do competitor analysis.

Allea Grummert [00:11:07]:
Great.

Andréa Jones [00:11:08]:
But I'm not accidentally seeing these emails.

Allea Grummert [00:11:11]:
Yeah, we don't need it. We already have enough that, like, throws us off course than, like, somebody entering a launch and being like, dang it, why didn't I do that? Or I should do that next time. Like, if, you know, being an online entrepreneur in general, I think we just have way too many ideas as it is. And then having it come from a competitor feels like you're missing out, and that's not fun at all. Well, I do want to hear about your mindful marketing lab. I know before the call, we were kind of talking about what that used to be called, what you used to focus on. Can you tell me a little bit about how you created that community and then why you rebranded it?

Andréa Jones [00:11:44]:
Yeah. So I've had this community since 2018, and it started off as the savvy social school. So because I ran an agency, I had so many resources with my team where I was like, this is how we approach, you know, posting to Facebook. This is how we create Instagram strategies. And so I started building a community and a resource for small businesses, online businesses, creators who wanted the same tools, that larger. I work with a lot of, like, course creators, for instance. So, like, your favorite course creators, what are they doing to, like, build their email list? What are they doing to build their social following? So I started building a resource lab for that, very focused on social media. But this year, like, or last year, 2024, I had, like, a moment, epiphany moment, when I was doing my audits, I was doing my competitor analysis, and I realized my email community is much larger and more tight knit than any of my social platforms.

Andréa Jones [00:12:40]:
So my email list, I have about 18,000. It bounces between 18,000, 19,000 people. My highest social following is 10,000, barely Instagram. And so, yeah, and, like, doing this audit and, like, looking at all this data, I was like, okay, so I think email is way more important to me than social. And talking with people about it too. Um, a lot of my, like, my OG community members are like, yeah, Andrea, we know you talk a lot about marketing. Um, and even this year, we did, like, this Instagram bootcamp and I was doing audits for all of our members. And, yeah, I'm looking at their Instagram, but we're like, we're looking at where people are going off of Instagram.

Andréa Jones [00:13:19]:
Like, they find you, then what? They go to your website and how Are you capturing their email address? Right. And so I end up talking about this stuff all the time anyways. And so it was a natural fit for me to go from the savvy social school to the mindful marketing lab because of my approach to marketing. It's not just social media in a bubble. In fact, social media is just one very tiny piece of, like, the marketing ecosystems that I help my clients build. And so, yeah, email is such a huge part of that. I love what we're doing in the lab.

Allea Grummert [00:13:50]:
Oh, my goodness. And I love that you're a fan of alliteration as well. I. I'm like, man, those are both really great names for a community, hands down.

Andréa Jones [00:14:00]:
So I literally can't help it. I wish I could be more creative than that, but that's. That's as far as it goes.

Allea Grummert [00:14:05]:
What my signature service is called the Duet Debut, and it always comes with jazz hands. Like, I can't not.

Andréa Jones [00:14:10]:
Like, yes.

Allea Grummert [00:14:11]:
Like, I named it almost as a joke. And then I was like, well, I think we're keeping it.

Andréa Jones [00:14:16]:
Yeah, you're not allowed to get rid of that name now because it's perfect.

Allea Grummert [00:14:20]:
And then I sign off all my emails with let's duet. So I have, like, a pun involved.

Andréa Jones [00:14:26]:
Puns and alliteration. Okay, you're winning. You're winning.

Allea Grummert [00:14:32]:
Well, thank you. I am curious because I love that this was like an epiphany for you, that your email and engagement and that community kind of eclipsed your social media, maybe without you even knowing that it was happening. You're like, I just did my end of year review as well. And so, yeah, I love that you did that as well. But I'm curious, like, what kept you doing email even when it felt like it was like the small fish in your marketing pool?

Andréa Jones [00:15:00]:
Yeah. One of the things I liked about email is it felt like a more intimate space to have conversation. So if I post something on social media, for instance, yeah, people can leave comments, but they're so public that I felt like the comments were surface level. Whereas my email list, even when I only had a hundred people on the list, it felt more intimate because of the depth of conversation we can have with the people who signed up. And so even though I didn't have a ton of people on my email list in the beginning, I felt that connection to them differently than I felt to the social media community, especially since they signed up for that space. But I didn't really start taking email seriously until I started my community, when I realized I had a lot of People in a free Facebook group shut it down. And I was like, wait, I miss these people. Like, I need to stay connected with them.

Andréa Jones [00:15:57]:
And so pulling them into my email list, that was the moment for me where I was like, ah, this feels really good to me. I'm not like, you know, fighting with the Facebook algorithm and whatever the hell's going on over there. And then it just felt really. Yeah, it felt really intimate and we could have conversations, and it felt more one on one than, like, publicly talking to everybody.

Allea Grummert [00:16:18]:
Yeah. So do you get replies from 18,000 people, Dreya? Yeah, I know that's what people are wondering.

Andréa Jones [00:16:25]:
They're like, I'm sorry, some emails do. So I did have two kids recently, and I share a lot more about my kids with my email list than I do on social. And those emails always get replies, so.

Allea Grummert [00:16:40]:
Gosh darn cute they are reply, it.

Andréa Jones [00:16:43]:
Should be illegal how cute they are. And I don't post photos on social. I'll do the occasional one in my email. And so those always get a ton of responses and replies. But yeah, I do. I do get responses. And I like it. I like it because I've been creating content online for so long.

Andréa Jones [00:16:59]:
I'm used to, like, the inbound replies. And I'm gonna cut that in quotes, like, used to, because it. I still get very anxious about it. But this is the thing that I love. Like, I'm super introverted, so this is the thing that I love about the work, doing work online. Because if I'm out and about, like, let's say, at a party or something, and I'm getting overwhelmed, it's a lot to, like, get up and leave. Whereas social media, I literally am just like, oop, phones on do not disturb mode. I need a moment.

Andréa Jones [00:17:28]:
Right? It's like, even if I get overwhelmed by, like, all of other people's emotions and their inputs, I feel like it's really easy for me, now that I've done the work, to recognize when that's happening and go, well, I need a moment. And, like, literally I can shut all of it out. And so, yeah, I get a lot of responses, but also I can control how and when I respond.

Allea Grummert [00:17:49]:
Oh, so good. Yeah, I just saw the image of, like, you're sitting with this cute little chair behind you. Like, you're like, I'm gonna reply to a bunch of emails. And then you're like, I'm done. I. I've hit my limit. And then just shut the laptop and go hold the baby.

Andréa Jones [00:18:01]:
Yes, that is it.

Allea Grummert [00:18:02]:
Exactly.

Andréa Jones [00:18:03]:
That is It. Exactly. And I, I like, my husband gets so annoyed with me, I had to actually put him. So like, on the iPhone, you can put someone outside of the do not disturb. Because I was like missing his calls and texts and he was like, okay, you have to make exceptions to this rule because I literally will just like, my phone is a brick and I can like read my Kindle and just pretend nothing else exists. And he's like, I need you to respond to your phone.

Allea Grummert [00:18:27]:
Oh, yeah, we need to change to the settings here so we have dependence.

Andréa Jones [00:18:31]:
I did tweak my settings so like, my mom and my husband can get through, but really I can shut out everything else.

Allea Grummert [00:18:38]:
Oh my gosh. That's fantastic. I am curious, how did you. Or how are you engaging with even your new subscribers so that they know that they can reply? Because I think a lot of people see us as us, the creators sending out the emails. Because one of the first emails I replied to, somebody goes, you replied? And I was like, still a person. Still a person. But like, how do you, how do you create and foster that environment so those new subscribers do reply and they feel like they're part of your community?

Andréa Jones [00:19:07]:
Yeah. So I'm not a fan of welcome sequences. I used to spend a lot of time, like, crafting them. And it's a very like, time honored tradition in the. I say time honored in digital marketing. Like, it, like, if people are starting a list, they're always like, have a welcome sequence. I have one email, and I have one email that introduces me a little bit about who I am. And then at that email, I say, I want to get to know you.

Andréa Jones [00:19:30]:
And I get a lot of responses to that one email. And it works for me too, because I just updated over the years with like, you know, first it was like, I have dogs. And then it was like, I moved to Canada. And then it was like, we got married and now we have kids. And so it was like, I add personal things to that one email so people can get to know me and my business and the changes we've made over the years. And then at the end I'm just like, now I want to get to know you. And people respond to that email. But also I send every Tuesday.

Andréa Jones [00:20:01]:
Here's the alliteration again. My mindful marketing memo I send every Tuesday. And in the memo, I use storytelling to like, illustrate the point and things like that. But I also, I always try to tell my stories and give advice from a place of vulnerability. I never want people to feel like I'm like, Eat your vegetables. You know, like, here's what you should be doing. So I always share from that respect. And then I ask people to share back with me too.

Andréa Jones [00:20:28]:
And so I do feel like, because I'm opening myself up to that and like making an intimate moment with my subscribers, they feel comfortable enough to respond to me as well. And I prompt it too. I'm like, hit reply, let me know your thoughts, that kind of thing.

Allea Grummert [00:20:42]:
So, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes it's just as easy as saying, like, reply back to this email and then asking a question that's like, not too difficult to send a reply to. You know, like, what is your life mission? I'm sorry. You know, or maybe it's something more like, what's the one thing you're struggling with right now? Or have you had something similar happen to you? Okay, I'm going to need to circle back on the distaste for welcome sequences, considering that is what I do all day, every day. And I want to get to the bottom of this. You're like, I love that you didn't even say no offense at the beginning. Because it's like, yes, well.

Andréa Jones [00:21:17]:
And you know too, like, I recommend them for other people, but I feel like, and this is where preferences come into play. I know the rules and I know that I make an exception to the rule intentionally, and still I recommend them to everyone else because they do serve a purpose. But I create a lot of content. I have a lot of products and a lot of offers. And for me right now, it doesn't make sense to have a welcome sequence because of the frequency that I send emails anyways. But for most people, I'm like, yes, have a welcome sequence. It will save your life.

Allea Grummert [00:21:51]:
Well, I wanted to dive in because, like, I mean, I. I'm curious to know even like, what you define as a welcome sequence versus just in general, because I feel like everybody has a different impression of that. And so why, while you said, I really hope everyone knows that I was kidding about giving you a hard time. I'm smiling so big. I was just teasing. I'm not a mean person. But I say that also because I had a client who recently, I mean, what did I write their welcome sequence in 2019, early 2020. And they've since sunset that for a one email welcome, same reason.

Allea Grummert [00:22:23]:
Because they're sending so many emails and so many timely emails. They're like, we just kind of want to get people into the. The point of it. That being said, there is a season for introducing people kind of to the Breadth of your content through a welcome sequence. Yeah. Okay.

Andréa Jones [00:22:38]:
So I used to have a welcome sequence, but I found myself updating it so much that I was getting frustrated. Um, and this was early days too because I do too much and I break my own rules too and I'm constantly experimenting. Um, a welcome sequence just doesn't make sense for me. But for me it's when someone signs up specifically for my newsletter. So my newsletter kind of call out is in multiple places on my website. So if they sign up just for the newsletter, there's just that welcome email and I use ConvertKit and they also have like their creator network. So if someone like recommends me and follows me in through my newsletter that way, there's like that one welcome email. However, I do have lead magnets that have sequences and series associated with them.

Andréa Jones [00:23:22]:
So the current one that I'm promoting is my social media reset challenge. It's a seven day challenge. So there are seven emails to go through that challenge. Even though you can go through them at any in like you can go through the whole challenge right when you sign up. I do have seven emails that kind of prompt people to go through the challenge. Other things, like my live stream guide has a sequence that specifically goes into an offer. So like some of my lead magnets have sequences attached to them because they lead to specific things. But if someone signs up just for the newsletter, it's just the one welcome.

Allea Grummert [00:23:56]:
Email and then they start getting your newsletter even sooner. Which is awesome. Yes. Well, yeah, I think even to the point where you're saying, like, I catch myself editing it over and over and over again, I have like maybe edited my welcome sequence two times in like five years. And so that, that just kind of goes to show too. Like, my business has basically stayed the same. I have the same two offer private like signature offers now than I did in 2019 when I read the welcome sequence. So that also, I think is a good distinction between if it's something where you're like, I can't get this to continue to reflect where I'm at, then just like you can break the rules and say, then this is just something that people are going to have to learn about through my regular emails and then it's just more on me to make sure that I'm talking about those things and what's changing, what's new, how they can get involved and it's not nearly as automated.

Allea Grummert [00:24:47]:
And that's okay. Yeah, yeah.

Andréa Jones [00:24:49]:
And I will say, if you decide to go this method, you are creating more work for yourself. Because I have to remind people what I do and be more intentional about. About that even more than if you had a welcome sequence that kind of sets the stage for you. So I am definitely team welcome sequence for most people.

Allea Grummert [00:25:07]:
Dre is like, we still have the rest of an interview to do.

Andréa Jones [00:25:10]:
Backpedaling. Backpedaling.

Allea Grummert [00:25:14]:
Oh, my goodness. Well, okay, so tell me about how you're blending the personal storytelling that you have with, like, the major goals you have of your email list. You'd mentioned talking about your family and doing some storytelling, but what is. What else are you, quote, unquote, selling or sharing or mindsets? You know, like, tell me what. Yeah. What is your strategy and how do you weave those together?

Andréa Jones [00:25:38]:
Yeah. So my emails have three sections. There's like an storytelling section that is that I put at the beginning of every email. There's a section where I have, like, hot links. So linking to my podcast, my YouTube videos, places I've guested, like, this podcast will go in that section. And then at the end, I have a section called before you go, which kind of expands on the story a little bit. But that's where I sell things. So the storytelling portion, to me is educational in nature.

Andréa Jones [00:26:09]:
It kind of slips a little bit into coaching. But I always try to bring it back to a marketing topic. So, for example, I shared one recently about how we went out to dinner with the kids, and my 2 year old is in this phase where she's, like, throwing her food on the floor. And it's very embarrassing. And so I talked about it in the newsletter, like, it's kind of embarrassing. But the thing I realized is, like, I'm more embarrassed than everyone else. Like, literally no one else cares. Because a lot of people.

Andréa Jones [00:26:38]:
I live in a small town, too. We know a lot of people in town, first of all. So they're just like, oh, they're the Joneses. And my daughter's adorable, so she can get away with way more.

Allea Grummert [00:26:48]:
They.

Andréa Jones [00:26:49]:
Half of everyone else in the restaurant has kids too. Right. So they don't care. And you just. You wipe it off the floor and you keep going. But, like, I feel embarrassed about it. And so I tied that into marketing, how sometimes we, like, we feel embarrassed when other people are like, yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it.

Andréa Jones [00:27:06]:
And so that's how I kind of, like, use storytelling and tie it into marketing with personal stories that people can relate to. Because we've all had those moments where we kind of cringe to ourselves, but we think about it way more than other people. And so that's how I tie in the example. Yeah. I tie in the storytelling. And then in the before you go section, I'm like, hey, if you want to build more confidence, like, I have this product that will help you with this problem. You know, like, here's how you can help or join the lab or whatever the case may be. And so I always tie it back in at the end.

Allea Grummert [00:27:37]:
That's awesome. And then, yeah, I mean, your list has grown to 18, almost 19,000. So when you send those emails, you probably see sales come through in every email. Yeah.

Andréa Jones [00:27:47]:
Is that pretty round?

Allea Grummert [00:27:48]:
Yeah.

Andréa Jones [00:27:49]:
See, this was the thing too, when I was doing my audit. I can't. Like, I feel silly as someone who's been working in content marketing for so long to, like, look at my stuff and go, oh, duh, the money's in the list. Like, people have been saying this for years, literally. And not to knock social media, because I use social media to grow my list, obviously. But almost every time I send an email, I sell something I say almost every. Because I have had launches that flop. And usually it's the product itself, like, nobody wanted it.

Andréa Jones [00:28:19]:
But if it's something people want, it sells. And I try to tie it into what is selling. Just like any big business would. Right? Like Starbucks just pumpkin spice lattes every year in September, specifically, because that's when we want it. They could technically do it in, like, March or something, but, like, we don't want it then. We. We need it when it's pumpkin season. So I feel like layering in your offer strategically to when people want them also helps with this.

Andréa Jones [00:28:45]:
Like, every time I send an email, I sell something. Idea.

Allea Grummert [00:28:48]:
Yeah. How do you kind of plan out your selling calendar then? So knowing, like, what time of year you're going to promote different things.

Andréa Jones [00:28:55]:
Yeah. So I do have key launches that I plan throughout the year, things that I've learned over the years that people like. So, for instance, my LinkedIn challenge I do every January, people love that. It's a great way to kick off the year. I do my Instagram Bootcamp every Aug. People love that one. So those things, they're kind of like cornerstones. And then the rest of it, I listen to what people want.

Andréa Jones [00:29:16]:
So, for example, threads is like, a huge question for a lot of people. Should we be on threads? It's like the new platform on the block. I did a threads workshop for my members, like, six months ago, and then someone asked me, like, oh, do you have any resources on threads? I'm like, oh, you got to join the lab, which is a little bit more of an investment. But my brain was like, why don't you just sell that individually? And so earlier this year, a couple months ago or last year, I was like, okay, we're going to take the threads workshop and sell it as a standalone thing because people are asking me for it. So it's like I'm listening to what people are saying and then creating the thing that they need to help take them to the next level. And so it is. It's like actively listening to the people in your community on what their needs are and then positioning yourself as like the natural solution to what they need.

Allea Grummert [00:30:05]:
Well, and I love that you already had the resource. You just needed to package it up a little bit differently.

Andréa Jones [00:30:10]:
Yeah, yeah, I basically. So it was an hour long workshop, so I spliced it up and put it in like course format and added in a couple more templates and things and away you go.

Allea Grummert [00:30:21]:
Away you go. Well, now that you've talked about tech, I'm just curious what is kind of your tech stack? You mentioned you use kit. What are you using for course formats?

Andréa Jones [00:30:28]:
Yes.

Allea Grummert [00:30:29]:
Other tools you like.

Andréa Jones [00:30:31]:
Listen, I will say convertkit. To me, it's like Twitter and X. Like I'm gonna be saying convertkit for a while.

Allea Grummert [00:30:36]:
It's. There is no shame here. There's no shame.

Andréa Jones [00:30:40]:
Okay, so convertkit. I use Circle for my community, so I like it because it's all in one. I was on Teachable before, which is great for courses, but for memberships, Circle is better because of the community element. I have all my courses in there. They also do live streaming, so I don't need like a zoom or anything so like I can live stream with my people. So I love it. I'm a huge fan. I use hello Audio so that my courses can be listened on the go.

Andréa Jones [00:31:08]:
So I create private podcast feeds for all of my products so that my members can listen other things like, I don't know, Zapier for connecting everything. Thrive Cart for my checkouts. WordPress for my website.

Allea Grummert [00:31:22]:
Yes. Oh, I love it. Oh, and remind me where you got your theme for your website because it's so beautiful.

Andréa Jones [00:31:27]:
Oh, yes. I use Blue Chic Blue Chic themes. I've been using them for years. Obsessed with all of their themes. They're very feminine, but like bold. I like it.

Allea Grummert [00:31:39]:
Yeah. But also clean as well. It was really easy to scroll through it. I was telling Drea before the call, I was like, just so you know, if I ever change anything on my website, I'M going to go back to your website. You're like. Like this.

Andréa Jones [00:31:50]:
I want this, please. Thank you.

Allea Grummert [00:31:52]:
So pretty. Yes. And that tends to just be my style, too. I don't like things to be too fluffy or hard to read. Like, I just. I want the information. And so that. That tends to be how I write a lot of my emails as well.

Allea Grummert [00:32:07]:
So I am actually wanting to circle back to the idea of storytelling because I don't know if I do much storytelling. If I do, it's like a blurb here or there, just like, with a personal detail more than a story. But how long is your storytelling before you dive into kind of the meat of the content?

Andréa Jones [00:32:23]:
Yeah, it's not long.

Allea Grummert [00:32:25]:
Okay. I don't.

Andréa Jones [00:32:25]:
I don't go too long because honestly, we're all busy. Like, I don't. We're not writing paragraphs here. Sometimes it's longer than others, but most of the time I'm like, trimming and shortening it. And also, I'm not a writer. I think this is a big thing too, about me is I'm not. This is why I like podcast. Like, I'm a talker this way.

Andréa Jones [00:32:44]:
I came from the YouTube background. Like, I'm a talker, not a writer. And so I find writing the newsletter sometimes very challenging. I found it a lot easier lately because of AI, actually. So what I do now is I will talk to my little friend ChatGPT, and I have, like, I created my custom GPT. So it's. It knows kind of my format of my newsletter, and I'll talk my newsletter out and then it will format it for me. And so that's my fast track to creating more newsletters.

Andréa Jones [00:33:14]:
But I still have to edit it. It's like 80% there. And then usually I'm editing because, like, tattoo gets wild sometimes. And I'm like, where. What did you. What did you get this from? So I edited down. I edit it all out, but it's me. It's me.

Andréa Jones [00:33:26]:
It's like I'm talking through, like, the story of my daughter throwing her spaghetti noodles on the floor and me feeling embarrassed. Like, it's a very personal story. But it's much faster for me to talk than to type, so I use that to help.

Allea Grummert [00:33:39]:
Well, and I love that you're using AI in order to get your thoughts across, to get your point across. Because so much of email, so much of connection is just the doing of the thing, the reaching out, the texting. A friend. I have a couple friends who just call me, like, FaceTime me at random. And if you're a millennial and you're like, what? I'm a millennial. And I freaking love it. Because my friend is like, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna take the chance that Allie is free and she's cuddling on the cat, watching pool dark with her cat, and the chances are usually really high.

Allea Grummert [00:34:09]:
So I can pause TV and FaceTime with my friend, but you don't know unless you just send the email or make the call. And so that's where we kind of get rid of some of the perfectionism or the. The implementation of it. Right. Because we're like, I know it's important, but there's a lot of steps from between knowing it's important and actually sending the email.

Andréa Jones [00:34:29]:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think this is where some people get tripped up in, like, the how it's supposed to be done scenario, when a lot of times done is better than perfect. Like, you can edit the email till the end of time and never send it. And then it doesn't even matter how much you edit it because you literally didn't send it. So some of it too, is just get it out there as it is now, and you can always improve going forward. And I've been through this journey there and back. Again, like, I started my email.

Andréa Jones [00:35:02]:
It's terrible. I was sending one email a month because again, writing's not my thing. And then as my business grow, like, at one point, I had over 10 employees in my agency. And so I was outsourcing my emails, but literally was outsourcing it the same way I would do to ChatGPT just to a human. I would record a loom video going, here's the story. Here's what I want to share my email. Then my copywriters would write it, and now I'm back to doing it myself. And so I think that no matter what your current circumstances are, you can use the tools that you have available to you to just get that email out there.

Allea Grummert [00:35:35]:
Absolutely. First of all, you said, here's a story, and I was like, I'm jamming the Brady Bunch immediately. Doing my best to focus Grea, but thank you. Didn't know I needed TV land to just pop in with a little show tune. Well, yeah, I love that AI has probably saved you from continuing to pay particular employee. In order to do that, I actually took back email marketing under my own purview, I guess, like in the last year and a half. And I will say that it's. It also is really important, especially if you're a service provider or people are trusting you with a really high end membership that they hear from you and by using AI like you've done, you're able to still have it, be you and be efficient and not have to be at the hands and mercy of somebody else trying to figure out the point you're trying to get across.

Andréa Jones [00:36:25]:
Yeah, exactly. It's. It is much shorter, I think. And also I can send out things a little bit more quickly. So like I am pro, like hire a team, especially at a certain level of business. Like you do have to start outsourcing things. And it's wonderful. And it helped me too.

Andréa Jones [00:36:43]:
I was like off having babies and things like that. But right now what I'm really loving is the nimbleness of doing it myself. Because things change so quickly in marketing, especially since a lot of my focus is social media. I mean, there's so much that's changing. And so someone asked me the other day about Blue Sky. Are you on Blue Sky? I literally signed up for it, played around and like the next email I sent was like, okay, here are my thoughts on Blue Sky. And so I feel like I can be a little more nimble when I'm doing it myself.

Allea Grummert [00:37:12]:
Absolutely. Because once you have a team. Actually, I had a friend say this at a conference recently. He goes, once you have a team, the hustler has to die. Like, you can't just like pivot and send it to them the day that it needs to go out. Like, you have to be planning a little bit in advance. Whereas, like when you and I are in charge of our email list, we can be a little bit more nimble, even if it is going out the next day. Because we're not relying on them to start the draft, to get our feedback, to get it proofread, or all those things.

Allea Grummert [00:37:40]:
Yeah, I like that word. Nimble. Nimble is the name of the game. Name of the game. I am curious, the people in your mindful marketing lab, what are some of the things that they're struggling with when it comes to executing on email? Anything we haven't talked about that you might recommend?

Andréa Jones [00:37:56]:
Yeah.

Allea Grummert [00:37:57]:
So I feel like, especially for those.

Andréa Jones [00:38:00]:
Starting an email list, it can feel a lot like you're shouting into the void, like, hello, anyone here? And so I think a lot of it is motivation to keep sending and then also making sure you are getting new people. Because once you start seeing those new people come in, it is motivation, motivation to keep writing. Like, as much as people are like, oh, you know, you shouldn't be seek external validation. I think for email lists, you should, like, we need to see the people opening and clicking. Like, if we don't see that, then we don't want to send the thing. It's just like human nature. And so part of it is like, keep sending emails. But the second piece is like, you gotta get new people on your email list.

Andréa Jones [00:38:38]:
And so we spend time obviously creating, like, taking your. We call it your pov. So, like your unique perspective, your values, your systems, your ip. We take that and put that in your email. Yes, but then also, you need to have an attraction strategy to get new people into your email. And so we do spend a lot of time there as well. And I think we should spend equal amounts of time in those two places. And so for a lot of my members, it is social media.

Andréa Jones [00:39:03]:
It is finding ways to find new people, connect with them, have them believe in you and your mission enough to where they will give you their email address, which, frankly, is it. It is a challenge to do. A lot of people, I know it's not a cost exchange, sure. But we don't want everything in our inbox. We're overwhelmed with it. We get too many emails as is. So it is a high level of trust that that person's putting in to you to say, yeah, you can have my email address. You can contact me.

Andréa Jones [00:39:34]:
So we use things like social media, podcast guesting, you know, speaking, all of those things that will get you in front of new people so they can discover you and then get on your email list.

Allea Grummert [00:39:45]:
Okay, I love that. And what the things you just mentioned, like podcast guesting or like, pitching list swaps is one of the ways I grew my list in the beginning. Those are actually. That requires some legs that doesn't just happen. And tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, do people just kind of assume, like, well, I've shared it on social media, therefore people will sign up. Like, is it. Is it a mix of both? Because it is.

Andréa Jones [00:40:08]:
And I think too, this comes from this, like, concept of the Internet. And we were thinking of the Internet as it was 10 years ago.

Allea Grummert [00:40:14]:
So, like, 10 years ago you could.

Andréa Jones [00:40:15]:
Just, like, post and people would find it and they'd be like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And you didn't have to, like, work that hard at it. Right now in 2025, we gotta work a little bit hard at it because there's too much content on the Internet, like, we literally cannot consume all of it. And so part of that is meeting people where they are and Being relatable. Right. Like you can't just say, you know, here's my email sign up. You kind of gotta give them a reason. What are they gonn that email address? Or you may have to dangle a carrot.

Andréa Jones [00:40:46]:
Here's something free so you can sign up for my email list. Right. And, and then you have to be repeating yourself a lot because we again, too much content. Even if we see it one time, we're like, oh, that's nice, I will come back to this later. And then the very next video is a cute little cat. We already scroll past it and we're gone. So you're gonna have to like keep repeating yourself. And so, yeah, I think it is.

Andréa Jones [00:41:08]:
It's a lot harder than it was, but it's, it's still such a fantastic way to find your people. Um, yeah, I love it.

Allea Grummert [00:41:16]:
Okay, is that something that you teach in the lab? Like some of these non traditional ways of just showing up in other communities and sharing audiences, being a podcast guest and getting leads?

Andréa Jones [00:41:26]:
Yes, yes. So my two favorite ways to do this right now are podcast guesting. And even if the podcast that you're pitching has one listener, that's one person who didn't know you existed before. Right. So we're gonna do it podcast guessing. Great. And then my second favorite way to do this is virtual speaking, specifically in summits. I think speaking in summits is a great way to get people on your email list and you only have to have one topic.

Andréa Jones [00:41:52]:
You don't have to have like a whole file folder of topics, just one thing that's like your thing that you stand for, that you can go and find groups of people who are actively looking for the thing that you offer. And so yes, I love social media too, that can support with the podcast guessing it supports with the summits. But those two things can really take. Take people deeper and more intimately into you and who you are. And then they're on your list and they're besties with you. Yeah.

Allea Grummert [00:42:19]:
Yes, we want them to be besties with you. We want them to know about what you're doing because that's also what helps break up the noise. And that's why I personally love a welcome sequence or one email welcome because they didn't know who you were 15 minutes ago. So this is your chance to say, this is who I am. This is how I'm going to help you stick around. And you're giving a voice to this name that they didn't know what it meant before. They didn't know who Andrea Jones was. They didn't know who Ali Grimmer was.

Allea Grummert [00:42:44]:
And now you're like, oh, it's the girl with the jazz hands. Like, okay, you know, making it a little bit more memorable. Or even if it's just a way to say, like, hey, I see you, I see you struggle with this. Stick around. I have solutions for you. And helping them kind of close that loop on who you are as a stranger, but also the loop on what that problem is that you're solving.

Andréa Jones [00:43:04]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so different when people sign up for our email list versus seeking information at other places because they have to know what to search for, right? So, like, take for instance, gardening. I'm using this example because I am terrible at it. And I love using this example because I don't know what I don't know. And I tried to do tomato plants and I've killed them twice now. So, like, if I go to YouTube and I'm like, how to grow tomato plants, do you know how many YouTube videos I'm going to find on that topic? And so many people talking about it. I found the one guy who was like, oh, he really broke it down to me. And now I'm on his email and I get all the gardening tips.

Andréa Jones [00:43:39]:
I still haven't done anything yet with it, but, like, if I need something, I'm going to him. Okay. I don't want everyone else because I. They have way too many varying opinions and it's too complicated. The way that he breaks it down works for me. And so I think that is the beauty of the email list is like, once people find you and they really connect with you, you have a path to providing answers to them that they didn't know that they were looking.

Allea Grummert [00:44:01]:
Oh, amen to that. I think immediately, perhaps listener is also thinking, oh, crud, how do I get to be that person that's so attractive that the people want to follow me? And I want to say that the answer to that is, like, do what feels best to you and how you're running your business or writing your blog content, because you also don't need to bend to every whim of every person and what they might need, because it's also fine if they want to, like, if somebody wants to go with, like, Betty instead of Billi, that's great. Thank goodness that Betty and Billi are both creating content and the different types of audiences are finding them and getting connected with them so there. I just don't want anybody to hear that and think that, like, oh, crud. Now I have to do it this perfect way that's super attractive or whatever. Because the same thing goes with emails. Everyone's like, how long should it be? How professional should it sound? And, like, you write however you want to write. If people aren't a fan, they.

Allea Grummert [00:44:53]:
They can leave, if that's okay.

Andréa Jones [00:44:54]:
Yeah, yeah. And I love this philosophy, and for me personally, it goes back to my. So I used to be a budget fashion blogger. Like, that was my blog in 2004. So I was saying, like, here's how you take something from Walmart and upscale it. Do you know how many people literally get mad that I'm like, I call myself a fashion blogger, but, like, I was budget fashion. Like, it was mostly other bloggers, like, judging, but, like, like, I was doing it my way and my community appreciated that. I, you know, wrote a blog about going to Goodwill and, like, you know, finding outfits and mixing and matching and putting things together.

Andréa Jones [00:45:29]:
And so I. There's always a space for what you're doing. Even if other people don't particularly connect or resonate with it, somebody will. And for me, it worked out great because by the end of my fashion bloggy days, I was doing things like, you know, I worked with Steve Madden and I did work with Macy's, and I got collaborations with people I would have never thought I would have got collaborations with. All because I, like, didn't listen to the people who are like, who wants to wear things from Walmart? And y'? All. Back then, Walmart was not cute. I'm telling you. We didn't have Target Fabulous.

Andréa Jones [00:46:02]:
It was not cute. So, yeah, just you do you boo?

Allea Grummert [00:46:08]:
Yes. And that there's room for you and there are people for you. I love it. Thank you. Dre, I am curious, what are you seeing in online marketing, whether it's social or email, you pick. What do you see evolving and what trends are coming up?

Andréa Jones [00:46:26]:
So I think that marketing is going to get even more complicated, but I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. So as someone who's been in marketing for a long time, I've studied for a long time. I used to have a very predictable formula. You do this, you do that, you do this. Your community finds you on Instagram, they sign up to your email list, then they're on your list, and that's where they buy. But it's becoming more complicated. So, for example, there's someone who posted in my community and they messaged me on Instagram and then they saw another, like, conversation on Facebook and We're having, like, a Facebook back and forth. All of these things are happening at the same time.

Andréa Jones [00:47:03]:
And, like, I could say, oh, they bought from my email list, right? But in reality, it's like a combination of interactions with that person that ultimately led them to make a purchase. So I think it's going to be even more complex going forward. Instead of just saying, you know, from point A to point B to point C, that's how, you know, we close the loop on this. I think it's going to get complicated, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think we just need to, like, relax our shoulders a little bit and meet people where they are. This is how I feel about Substack. I have a lot of feelings about Substack because it's like an email list that meets blogging, and my brain struggles to, like, capture the idea of it because I'm like, what is this? And then you also have, like, a paid portion. And so, like, I rejected the idea of it for a long time where I was like.

Andréa Jones [00:47:52]:
Like, I would literally tell people, like, don't worry about it. You must build on your own email list. Right. I was, like, very staunch about, like, don't do stuff. And now I'm like, well, like, if people are there in their reading, it's like, well, we can meet them where they are. And if it's easy for you to create on sub stack, then, yeah, go for it. And so I think I'm loosening myself up a little bit to, like, let's fish where the fish are, instead of, like, trying to fight so hard on, like, no, they have to find my blog that's on my website. Then they have to sign up for my email newsletter.

Andréa Jones [00:48:23]:
It's like, you could be missing people or you could be trying to force yourself into a strategy that doesn't actually work for you. So is it more complicated?

Allea Grummert [00:48:31]:
Yes.

Andréa Jones [00:48:31]:
But I also think it could be more rewarding because you could potentially connect with people in interesting ways.

Allea Grummert [00:48:36]:
I love it. I do want to ask a few things before we wrap up, but you kind of mentioned a soapbox earlier, but I'm curious. Kind of going back to the whole idea of mindful marketing. Not burning out, being really purposeful and intentional with what you're doing. Why is that so important for people to hear? What do you want people to know?

Andréa Jones [00:48:57]:
Yeah, I think it's important to hear because we can compare ourselves so much to everything online and because there are lot of options. There's so many options.

Allea Grummert [00:49:05]:
Right.

Andréa Jones [00:49:05]:
Of what you could be doing, should you start a YouTube channel or should you blog? Should you be on TikTok, or should you be writing little quips on threads? Like, we have so many options, and if we try to do them all, we will burn out, and then we're not doing any of them, and then we're not happy. And so I do think that it's important to notice that there are a lot of options and then intentionally decide which ones you're going to try and then give yourself permission to, like, reject it if it's not for you. For example, I told you, every year I do this Instagram bootcamp, had someone sign up, go through the whole bootcamp, start Instagram, join the lab, everything. And then they're like, I don't like Instagram, Andrea, like, help. And I'm like, great, that's fine. Here's what we can do to get you off Instagram, and here's where we can focus our attention. And now they're using threads, which, albeit it's connected to Instagram, but they like threads because it's not. Not polished.

Andréa Jones [00:49:56]:
It's not. They don't have a plan. They don't have to have a, you know, strategy. They definitely don't have to do reels. And so it's working for them. And so I think this is part of the mindfulness piece. To me, it's like, outside of your personality, I could absolutely say, yes, Instagram could work for you, but if you start getting into it and you're like, I don't like it here. This isn't for me.

Andréa Jones [00:50:15]:
There are so many other options. And you have to be intentional and mindful about choosing what will work for you and the direction you want to go with your business.

Allea Grummert [00:50:22]:
This. Yeah. And so it doesn't suck the life out of you trying to be or do something you really don't want to do.

Andréa Jones [00:50:27]:
100%. Yeah.

Allea Grummert [00:50:28]:
Oh, I love it. Well, I would love it if you would share with the listeners, those of us, those who've listened this far. I can't imagine anyone clicking away. This has been such a fun conversation, but where can people learn more about you? Your lab, your work? Yeah. Tell them how to connect with you.

Andréa Jones [00:50:46]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned the website, so it's online. Drea.com. that's online. D R E A.com is the website. On there, you will find the option to sign up for my newsletter, my free social media reset challenge, my mindful marketing podcast, the Lab, Everything is on there. And if you're a social person I am on social media. I'm the exception to the rule again here.

Andréa Jones [00:51:06]:
I'm everywhere. Nline Drea But I do love Instagram and I love a voice note. If you're like, hey, I listen to you on the Happy Subscribers podcast, it will make my whole day.

Allea Grummert [00:51:14]:
Oh yes, it make my day too. Group text us. Group messaging group Wake up. I want to know. I want to know who's all listening. Well, thank you so much, Drea, for your time and your wisdom and, yeah, giving really great examples. I covet that because I can only know my own experience and it was such a blessing to be able to hear yours.

Andréa Jones [00:51:34]:
Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show. This has been great.